Why do cops use hollow-point bullets?

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Hollow-point bullets before and after hitting their targets.
Wikipedia

A Board of Supervisors committee will tomorrow (Thu/21) consider a pair of proposals to regulate the sale of ammunition in San Francisco. And while the legislation is all but certain to pass – gun control is always popular in San Francisco, even when it has minimal impact – one of the measures raises some interesting questions about our understanding of the purpose of deadly weapons.

Sponsoring Sup. Malia Cohen and Mayor Ed Lee held a press conference in December, shortly after the horrific shootings in Newtown, Connecticut, announcing proposals to require notification of the San Francisco Police Department when someone buys 500 round or more of ammunition and banning “the possession or sale of law enforcement or military ammunition.”

The latter measure concerns the sale of hollow-point bullets that are designed to expand after entering the bodies of their targets, which General Hospital Dr. Andre Campbell told those assembled at the press conference “create absolute devastation in the victims. When they strike a victim it's like a bomb going off.”

So why do we let police officers use them? After all, while officers are instructed to shoot-to-kill when firing their guns, do we really need to make extra sure that those hit by police bullets die? I'm sure the families of the long list of people shot by police who are at most guilty of less than a capital offense -- let alone innocent victims of overexuberant policing -- might disagree with that approach.

Well, one reason that law enforcement sources cite for their use of hollow-point bullets is that they tend to stay in their targets, thereby reducing collateral damage from bullets exiting a victim and hitting someone else. Fine, but doesn't that same logic also apply to criminals shooting at rivals in the street? Isn't it better for their intended target to suffer more damage if it might save other innocent bystanders?

Incidentally, the use of hollow-point bullets was once recognized as a war crime, banned under the Hague Convention of 1899, precisely because of the extra damage they inflicted on human bodies. But now, San Francisco seeks to protect them for cops but ban them for citizens, which certainly seems to violate the spirit of the Second Amendment and intent of allowed an armed citizenry to stand against police state tyranny.

The board's City Operations and Neighborhood Services Committee takes up the measure starting 10am in City Hall Room 263.

Comments

If a big guy is coming right at you threatening deadly force, then your one and only concern is to stop him. Some guns have more stopping force than others. The Magnum .357, which we all know and love from the Dirty Harry movies, is pretty effective at stopping a man but that firearm is not practical to carry around and use day-to-day. It's kick alone is debilitating and the movie glossed over that.

The 9 mm guns that have taken over the planet are portable, but one bullet might not be enough to stop a man, unless you get lucky with a head or heart shot. And 9mm slugs travel a long way, meaning potential collateral damage to bystanders.

What a cop, or anyone, needs in such a life-and-death situation is a "one shot kill". And the only way to guarantee that in the "fog of war" is a hollow point, because it is in any event the shock waves that incapacitate a bad guy, lowering his blood pressure instantly. A hollow point will do that even if the shot was to a part of the body that would normally enable the bad guy to keep coming at you.

Yes, a few more thugs die because of these bullets. Cry me a freaking river. It's cops' safety that counts here.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 4:31 pm

Dirty Harry used a .44 Magnum not .357.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:31 pm

that's why. In a city you do not want loose ammunition flying around during a gunfight.

Do you ever stop bitching?

Posted by Lucretia Snapples on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 5:06 pm

there. We should be grateful for small mercies and concessions.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 6:14 pm

Well, OK. I can sort of see the logic here. Well we definitely want to save people from random shots going through walls and hitting people.

Soooo.... I'm thinking more lives of innocent people behind walls saved is a good thing. Well then that begs the question.... do more innocents die in this manner from the bullets of cops, or from the bullets of gangbangers? Now I have NO doubt that bullets from cops would account for *some* of those deaths, but I'm guessing that even if cops didn't use hollow point bullets, the victim count would *still* be higher from the bullets of gangbangers.

Therefore, if you're going to allow them for cops on the grounds that you just articulated, then we should allow them in general, because they'll save even more lives that way.

IF you're going to allow hollow point bullets for your stated reason, AND you're going to allow them for cops but not for anyone else, then you must think that cops are the most dangerous class of people with guns out there. Lucretia, why are you such a cop hater?

Posted by Greg on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 8:44 pm

Yes...good point...we would be better off if criminals used these hollow point bullets that don't go through walls.

The SFBG should call for a bullet exchange program where gangs, car jackers and other urban gun enthusiasts can turn over their existing arsenal in exchange for hollowed out bullets. It would make the city much safer.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 9:48 pm

Gang members and criminals focused on property crimes are a natural and welcoming outcome of societies such as the US that are so heavily tilted in favor of wealthy families over poor families. There are plenty of gated communties in the Bay Area where you can run and hide, but you better hurry since they are becoming very expensive. If you can't see the civil war between the haves and have-nots quickly approaching, you're just as clueless, ignorant, and arrogant as the Lucretias of the world.

The government may be spending almost half its budget on a highly paid police force to protect the wealthy property classes, but when 2/3 of the population sees little hope for a better future, the police can have the most advanced weaponry and best technology and they still won't have a chance against the streaming masses fed up with an economic system that rewards the very wealthy over everyone else.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:53 pm

Which is normal for you but is it necessary to babble endlessly while doing so? Just bang randomly on your dirty keyboard and hit "save."

Posted by Lucretia Snapples on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 9:49 pm

I'm just taking it to its logical conclusion.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:59 pm

It is as different from "straw man" as music is to darkness.

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:33 am

You often hear of gang fights causing collateral damage (by their bullets entering adjacent homes). So wouldn't it be better if criminals had these bullets too?

Posted by Guest on Feb. 28, 2013 @ 8:19 pm

I would assume that most people killed by the cops are shooting at the cops, attempted murder is a capital crime.

Posted by matlock on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 6:27 pm

I assume that most people shot by cops are not shooting at cops. Some of them are running away, or brandishing a wallet, or driving from a wedding, or acting weird because they're off their meds, or delivering newspapers in a truck that looks vaguely (but not really) like the truck of someone the cops are looking to kill... or maybe just lying face down on the ground in handcuffs until some pig decides to shoot them execution style.

I'm guessing most people shot by cops don't even have a gun on them, let alone firing it at the cops.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 8:33 pm

>"I'm guessing most people shot by cops don't even have a gun on them, let alone firing it at the cops."

Good guess. Is there a single molecule of truth in it or is just something that you like to say?

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 9:51 pm

Your cluelesslness get in the way of your understanding, of course, but Greg cleverly made every one of his examples a real life case.

That cops ostensibly are supposed to use guns on people with guns or otherwise presenting a clear danger to them or others does not change the fact that they often use guns on unarmed -- and un-dangerous -- civilians.

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 10:23 pm

I thought you were dead. Pity.

Posted by Lucretia Snapples on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 10:52 pm

Um...better leave him be. The statement in question is true because lillipublicans says it is. No further verification is required.

Just leave it at that and maybe he will simply go away pleased with himself.

Not our problem.

Posted by Troll on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:17 pm

Google Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell, Reynaldo Cuevas, Oscar Grant, Idriss Stelley, Emma Hernandez and Margie Carranza, etc. etc. For every person "shot by cops while shooting at the cops," as the troll stated, so casually sure of himself that this was the typical case of a police shooting, Google seems to come up with literally multitudes of people shot by police while completely unarmed, and often completely innocent of anything.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 12:22 am

Amadou Diallo, Reynaldo Cuevas and Sean Bell happened in New York. Idriss Stelley was in the Bay Area in 2001. Emma Hernandez and Margie Carranza - Los Angeles.

So you picked out 7 tragic incidents from across the country going back 12 years and claim they are proof that "most" of the shootings are mistakes.

Do you understand why that destroys your credibility???

I don't buy into the Tim Redmond school of "If any statement supports our cause it is BETTER than true".

Posted by Troll on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 8:42 am

I could provide more. I'm just waiting for someone to provide one case where someone was shot while shooting at the cops. I can guarantee you that for every one such incident provided, I can provide more incidents like these.

If you recall, matlock made a casual "assumption" as he put it, without providing any evidence for that assumption whatsoever, anecdotal or otherwise. I've seen no evidence to support that assumption from you either, and that's what I'm responding to. I think I've demolished the assumption pretty well. The ball is in your court.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 8:53 am

>"I'm just waiting for someone to provide one case where someone was shot while shooting at the cops."

Yesterday. Sacramento - http://www.sacbee.com/2013/02/21/5206331/stolen-car-suspect-killed-after...

Sorry, I don't have time to do a national search going back 11 years.

Posted by Troll on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 9:12 am

How about the 4 Oakland cops killed in the line of duty, Isaac Espinoza- SFPD killed in the line of duty. CHP officer Youngstrom- killed in the line of duty. The recent Dorner case in LA. You really put your foot in your mouth on this one.

Posted by Whackamole on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 11:11 am

You must be the biggest idiot to bring up that case. Dorner btw was a former police officer so basically that's cops shooting cops but literally how many innocent people took bullets because the police "thought " they were Dorner. GREG YOUR COMMENTS ARE AWESOME. STEVE GREAT ARTICLE! All anyone has to do is YouTube POLICE BRUTALITY, YOU WILL FIND HUNDREDS FROM JUST THE PAST 3 MONTHS...

Anyone who believes the police should have more artillery then it citizens does not support American values or it's constitution.

Posted by FightBackAgainstSociety on Jun. 13, 2013 @ 11:09 am

because I distrust the government.

The Black Panthers tried your approach but it didn't end well for them.

Posted by Guest on Jun. 13, 2013 @ 11:32 am

No, your problem is something else. I also recognized every one of his examples as real-life cases. Even a dumbo shd have picked up on the Mesehrle (sp?) case.

Posted by tagletigre on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 11:13 am

Lilli may be just as lonely, needy, and loathesome as you and a few of the other non-stop posters here. But at least lilli's posts occasionally have something useful to say, whereas your posts almost never add anything but hateful snark. Nice life. Your parents must be so proud that you're using your privilege and wealth to tear down others.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:29 pm

Quite a bit - and your post was funny too.

Posted by Lucretia Snapples on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:58 pm
Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:19 am

Is that you are guessing. Yes- the Oscar Grant shooting was horrible as were a few shootings by NYPD etc. If you truly think most cop shootings are done by cops looking to kill someone- I suggest you move to a safer country. Seriously.

Posted by Whackamole on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 11:07 am

After all, a case can be made that he was simply responding in-kind to an absurd pronouncement.

I will say, though, that Greg doesn't seem to have never said anything the least bit positive regarding cops.

I suspect that bad experiences sway Greg's opinion and obscure the reality that cops are for the most part decent people just trying to "do good"; and that it is the system which selects them and the milieu within which they operate which is to be reviled for producing the results we see.

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 12:01 pm

possibly in a mis-spent youth, and that has colored his judgment on this topic.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 12:44 pm

during war protest and other such events.

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:09 pm

Thanks for the nostalgic, sentimental blowback.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:18 pm

All men are pigs.

Posted by marcos on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:39 pm

You're barely a man at all.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:47 pm

What's your hero Jim Goad have to say about it?

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:49 pm

Are you suggesting that all men are not pigs?

Posted by marcos on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 2:06 pm
Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 2:09 pm

after having been educated as to why such spoutings are a mistake.

I do think I understand the problem though.

The problem is that, similar to a racist who's offended by the topic of racism, your male-dominant world-view finds Dworkin's clear-eyed -- though not necessarily well-written -- analysis of the inherently un-equal societal memes surrounding sex to be offensive.

Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 2:26 pm

Better start over.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 2:39 pm

How did Eric Cartman like to put it: "Sounds like someone has sand in their vagina."

Posted by marcos on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 2:41 pm
Posted by lillipublicans on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 3:14 pm

Attempted murder is not a capital crime, maximum is life with parole.

Posted by marcos on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:07 pm

If you wave a gun around while dealing with the cops and you get yourself all killed, who cares?

Posted by matlock on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 11:18 pm

Gawd yall niggas cant even spell, its Capitol not Capital SMH

Posted by Guest on Apr. 25, 2013 @ 5:46 pm

Steven,
Thanks for posing the questions I don't see being asked anywhere. And interesting history about the war crime angle. What progress, eh?

I will say this though... this double standard is why I'm not entirely comfortable with gun control in general. I think there should be reasonable regulations on guns, but those regulations should extend to the police as well. I wouldn't mind a British model where it's difficult for citizens to obtain guns, but the police don't carry them either. I think we'd see the same results if we did that -very few murders and almost no shootings by cops. But we don't. We have a police force that acts like an occupying army in many urban communities, even as we unilaterally disarm the citizenry.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 20, 2013 @ 8:53 pm

here, and invariably take the side of the criminals.

So why would anyone here take your comments seriously?

We should want the cops to be have more firepower than the thugs. Is that really so hard for you to fathom?

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 6:46 am

So you engage in ad hominem attacks.

See, the problem is, Guest, that all too often the cops are no different than the thugs. See the cases I alluded to above, and a quick google search reveals multitude of others.

Posted by Greg on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 8:40 am

I must have read 100 posts by you on the subject of cops, and you have a 100% consistent record of criticizing them. So you can hardly then complain when people discount your views on this subject, because you have not demonstrated one scintilla of objectivity on the subject.

You don't like cops. We get that.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 10:12 am

I actually agree with Greg on this one (but probably for different reasons). Over-penetration is a very real problem (cop or gang banger). If I live in an apartment next to a guy who owns a pistol, I'd want him to have frangible bullets. So why keep them out of the hands of the ordinary law-abiding citizen.

Oh and Greg, your hatred of police is pretty clear to anyone who has read your posts in regards to any article on this site that deals with law enforcement.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 21, 2013 @ 1:39 pm

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